Topic: Dealing With Troublesome Players
Author: Jamie, et al
Summary: Jamie of AdminMUSH hosts a forum on how to deal with troublesome
players.

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Currently running RhostMUSH version 3.2.4
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Last connect was from 24.26.171.123 on Wed Oct 25 10:53:09 2000.
The Shell
============================================================================
The Shell is a massive nightclub, the bulk of the club itself is a single
room. It is almost three stories in hight, though mostly underground, and a
city block in length and width. The factory that the building once was has
been stripped and rebuilt, though the feeling of it's origins seem firmly
rooted and relected upon by the designer's industrial style. Sprawling
catwalks of carefully tarnished steel make up the "ground level" of the night
club. The catwalks skirt the edge of the walls with a squared spiral staircase
heading down at each of the four corners of the room.
Lights are sparse and dim, letting the patrons bring their own in the form of
chemical glow sticks or LEDs as seems to be the style of the moment. Neon
lines the bar top and arches over the wall behind it, where the more exotic
forms of liquor sit on several layers of glass shelves.
============================================================================
Contents:
Minkar
Bobby_Newmark
Ari
Naze
Ashen-Shugar the Valheru.
China
Jamie floatz on his magic carpet.
Trispis
Locke The Invisible Emmisary
Walker
Kalain
Shire (Rules & Regulations Officer)
Javelin
Obvious Exits:
<O>-Out
LogBot is active and now logging events it it's location.
Mail: You have no current folder
Mail: You have no mail
Walker says "2:05 here."
Ari says "Well....shall we?"
China says "and I'm sure Javelin has 1pm."
Javelin was told 2pm EST
Locke intones "2:01, says me timeserver query query"
Javelin says "Which is now. :)"
China grins, "I'm always an hour early on yours. :)
Jamie says "we get the idea. How about let's start with a couple introductions
for some of the people at least. I'am Jamie and current owner of this MUSH.
I've attempted to gather people from various different aspects of the MU*
world which it looks like we have a few at least."
Walker says "People are weird. I asked 20 of them what time it is and they all
gave me different answers!"
Walker sits down and turns quiet
Bobby_Newmark says "the problem with the comsys I made, is that I kinda made a
mess of it while i was working on moving from the old muse comsys to the new
one. and it's deMUSE specific .. but I would be willing to help you guys use
it for MUSH :)"
Jamie says "first we've got Javelin, maintainer of PennMUSH and owner of
M*U*S*H amoung other things."
Ashen-Shugar grins "You know I wante dit :)"
Ashen-Shugar idles to see if he can't drag Brazil here.
China applauds.
Walker applauds
Javelin waves, but isn't "first" by any standard in this crowd. :)
Bobby_Newmark will be idle off and on, as I am at work. I apologize in
advance. I'll read all backlog.
Jamie says "we've also got Bobby_Newmark, maintainer of DeMUSE and owner of
the muse by the same name."
China applauds.
Trispis applauds twice.
Bobby_Newmark laughs. "Yeah, i'm one of those freaky MUSE people" :)
Ashen-Shugar grins.
Jamie says "Ashen-Shugar, maintainer (or at least one of em =) ) of Rhost,
which this game is running on."
Walker quotes Shakespeare, "oh for a MUSE of fire"
Trispis applauds again.
Ashen-Shugar grins "So I'm the one to blame for the weirdness of this codebase
(more or less) :)"
China applauds again.
Locke blames ashen-shugar shamelessly ;)
Ashen-Shugar grins.
Walker wrote weirder before and wiped it out.
Bobby_Newmark laughs
Jamie says "Ari, developer of the up-coming OOMUS codebase which not yet
playable has alot of promise in my opinion... (perhaps because alot of my
ideas are driving it? :) )"
Trispis applauds some more.
Walker grins at Ari
China applauds again.
Ashen-Shugar whees.
Ari cheers wildly! ;)
Bobby_Newmark notes that he is mentally applauding everyone but himself. :)
Ashen-Shugar will have to get some scoop on OOMUS so I can add it to my server
reference page.
Walker grins at Bobby and tells everyone "Consider yourself applauded"
Ari says "That's why I'm here...to spread the word. ;)"
Jamie says "as well as the various players from different MU*s around the
globe, which I'am not really familiar with each of you enough to make
introductions for."
Trispis applauds Jamie, too.
Jamie says "my purpose in bringing together such a diverse group is to sort of
bridge the gap that has grown between all of us and to perhaps bring some
refreshing new ideas to all."
Walker applauds Jamie for his marvelous bridge engineering
Bobby_Newmark . o 0 ( let's go back to tinymud! ) *grins*
Ashen-Shugar grins "Nothing wrong with TinyMUD :)"
Jamie says "each of the previously mentioned codebases have their differences,
some vast, some minor, but what each of them does have in common is
problematic players...commonly termed 'twinks'."
Bobby_Newmark likes the conversational features of the later servers :)
Ashen-Shugar grins.
Jamie says "and due to the differences in code bases each of the game's staff
is of course going to have variations in how they handle these players. Let's
start this off with a little object lesson."
Jamie says "Bobby, would you step up to the Mic? ;)"
Shire has disconnected.
Bobby_Newmark says "sure."
Jamie says "ok, for this part we have a test dummy of sorts in Guest1."
Jamie says "let's assume he is a guest on your game Bobby. Let's see how you
would handle him."
Guest1 has arrived.
China raises an eyebrow.
Bobby_Newmark says "Oh. heh."
Ashen-Shugar sits back and passes around popcorn.
Bobby_Newmark says "I'm pretty good with bad people, usually. particularly
hackers (since I was one :))"
Guest1 says "join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join
my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com
4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game: my.game.com 4201join my game:
my.game.com 4201"
Trispis says "Ouch."
China blinks.
Jamie says "it's a common occurance Trisp."
Ashen-Shugar nods "Yea, it is."
Bobby_Newmark<to guest1>: Umm, Hi G1. I was going to welcome you to this game,
but it appears you may have another agenda other than being a participant
here. Are you interested in this game, or do you just wish to advertise your
game?
Bobby_Newmark says "we honestly don't have to much of a problem like that in
the muse arena, but.. :)"
Jamie says "Ok, Bobby has chosen to take the diplomatic approach. Do any of
you disagree with that?"
Javelin wouldn't do that, but doesn't disagree.
Jamie says "we used to years ago man ;)"
Ashen-Shugar notes without first knowing guest's motivies, diplomacy is best
for now.
Bobby_Newmark says "jaime: i took that action only because I don't know who
this person is. if from the host and timing and a particular pattern, i was
able to assertain a problematic repeat ofender, I likely would have just
booted em :)"
Jamie says "how would you handle it Jav?"
Javelin says "I'd boot them. I'm interested in the question "is this a player
that I want?", and my answer is "no". I'm personally less interested, at that
point, in whether they are interested in my game or not."
Ashen-Shugar would have handled it a bit differently than both as well.
Jamie nodz, "shoot Ash."
Jamie says "we're here to learn from each other. Broaden the horizens so to
speak. ;)"
Bobby_Newmark says "jaime: i think it's a very good idea, :)"
Jamie teachez wm how to spell his name.
Bobby_Newmark says "jamie: sorry. I got used to spelling it that way cuz
that's my wife's name spelled that way. habit :)"
Trispis teaches Jamie how to spell 'teaches'.
Trispis smirks.
China laughs.
Ashen-Shugar says "If the guest was a repeat offender or a site I recognized,
I'd just axe them and be done with it. I don't have th etime or energy or
desire to want people who don't want to be part of the mush. If it was someone
new, generally someone new to mushing with not enough info on 'ettiquette'
tend to be, shall we say, over enthusiastic. I'd gently pat them on the head
(metaphorically) mention to please not be so spamming and compliment them
(slightly) on their enthusiasm then try to subtly direct them to more ettique
ways to approach it. Then, depending on their response/continued activity you
either let them remain, or @boot them."
Trispis partially agrees w/ A-S as representing his ideology.
Jamie says "anything to add Tris?"
Bobby_Newmark says "ash: that's very close to what I'd have done. just worded
a lot better :)"
Trispis nods, "If I may."
Jamie says "go ahead. ;)"
Trispis says "The excessive spam indicates one of two major categories of
player types: 1) new, clueless, etiquette-uninformed, or b) deliberately
troublesome."
Trispis says "Before @booting, which of the above needs to be determined."
Ashen-Shugar nods :)
Trispis says "If clueless, @booting them doesn't give them a 'clue'. It just
makes them hate your game."
Javelin hates to take the hard line, but thinks it takes more than MUSH
cluelessness to spam like that. It requires general social cluelessness, which
I don't want. And their opinion of my game isn't of concern to me. My time is
too valuable to try to give clues to the utterly clueless.
Kalain raises his hand.
Trispis says "I say, discover the player type. Respond accordingly. If
troublesome, @boot (after giving them a chance to read your AUP, if you want).
If clueless, guide them to your appropriate venues of information
disemmination (M*U*S*H has a bbgroup for advertising other MU*'s, for example)
and your policies on spamming (or other undesirable behavior).... and, if you
can keep their attention long enough, a website or two on appropriate
behaviors."
Ashen-Shugar agrees partly. But I have run across people who can be taught
relatively painlessly what is proper or not. For people willing to learn, it
takes very little. For those that are (let's be brutally blunt here) dense as
a goard or problematic, I take Javvy's ideal and just cut out the tumor before
it spreads."
Trispis has, FWIW, always been the voice of "pathetic, futile sympathy toward
twinks" on M*U*S*H (the thorn in Jav's side, so to speak).
Jamie says "go ahead Kalain if you have something to add."
Ashen-Shugar chuckles "I used to be that way, but when I hit my 8th year
mushinhg I grew tired and more hard."
Javelin . o O (Not always futile. :)
Javelin gives Ashen-Shugar the secret handshake again.
Trispis says "I understand Jav's perspective. I even appreciate it. I just
don't always agree with it."
Ashen-Shugar does the finishing 'nyuk nyuk nyuk' as he ends the handshake.
Trispis chuckles at Jav and A-S.
Jamie says "Ari, what tools is OOMUS going to offer the administrators to deal
with this type of behavior?"
Kalain says "Our MUSH has a policy about recruiting such as that. New guests
are locked to the guest channel. We don't discourage recruiting as other MU*es
do. We even have a board for it. BUT, we have that board locked so you have to
make it through CharGen to post on it. When we have someone come on and
recruit, one of us patiently explains the policy to the newbie. We tend NOT to
treat them as twinks until such time as it's a repeated behavior. Nine times
out of ten, they understand. If they continue to go ahead and break the
policy, we warn them. If they continue, THEN we consider booting them and
logging their IP."
Jamie says "oops, Kalain woke up. One moment Ari."
Bobby_Newmark says "Most newbies are annoying and troublesome. but with a bit
of guidance, they turn out to be very helpful users who help the community
grown and contribute positively to the :has always tried to be inclusive and
tried to increase the population on games by bringing in good users and
converting bad users to good. . . MUSE people were stupid in the past and
tried to run off guests."
China says "has anyone thougth ...without asking further, if the spam was
meant. I assume we're dividign the thing down to ...come join my mud, and how
many times it was said. True, if he logged on and said that, he's not
interested in YOUR mush, just his, but I've found my client zmud, has
unforunately in the pass, caused spamming unintentionally."
Kalain sorries about the delay.
Ari says "N/p."
Bobby_Newmark says "china: that's why I start assuming innocence :)"
Guest2 has arrived.
Kalain says "There's an unregistered flag that gets removed when they complete
CG."
Ari says "This is something I see as an issue for administrative policy; not
for the server to fix. You can't just write an anti-spam feature, or colorful
room descriptions will be truncated, as will any code that a person punches
in."
Javelin snaps for Ari.
Jamie says "actually Ari, Bobby does have an anti-spam tool of sorts.
@blacklist"
Ashen-Shugar notes rhost does in some ways as well.
Jamie says "unless he's ripped it out."
Ari nods.
Ari says "But as far as 'Guest logs in. Guest spams idiocy.', it's hard to
code anything to cover that general case automatically."
Bobby_Newmark says "no. @blacklist is a feature I dcoded so that 2 people who
can't stand one another can exist in the same world."
Trispis says "As does Penn (@sitelock, GAGGED, and some custome widgets as
well)."
China says "zmuds command line doesn't clear when it's entered, and if the
enter key sticks.. oh dear. :("
Ari nods.
Jamie says "@blacklist is for the specific user to invoke though as I
understand it."
Javelin only knows of one, Ari. Registration-only, and no guests.
Ari says "Exactly."
Trispis says "The guest aspect of this situation does create a unique
parameter to address."
Bobby_Newmark says "@blacklist works better than @gag from my understanding.
This prevents the person who set the @blacklist to not see anything that the
blacklisted person says, but also thge blacklister can't be heard by the
blacklisted."
Ari says "Which is just a coded feature to facilitate such administrative
procedure; which, by the way, is excellent administrative procedure."
Bobby_Newmark says "and yeah, it's user to user blocking."
Trispis says "You want to allow guests, but you don't want to allow twinks to
abuse guest characters."
Ashen-Shugar notes does it block third-party tools like $commands or @pemits
or the like?
Ari says "Actually..."
Trispis says "Good point, China. MUTTLite does that, too."
Ari says "I don't like guests. Give them the information on a web page. Let
them learn about MU*ing from places that don't mind stupid people. And then
make them register for your site if they really want to play there."
Bobby_Newmark says "deMUSE is unique in that we allow everyone. it's pretty
much a free for all unless you harass someone .. we have an anti harassment
policy with what equates to a 3 strikes rule, and a few other rules (like,
don't crash the game on purpose!).. so we have people who hate one another on
the same game. so @blacklist exists."
Kalain says "We have, as I said, a lot of things locked to guests. Channels
and board posting. They can /read/ boards, but not /post/."
Trispis says "Gee thanks, Ari."
Ashen-Shugar notes a mush should have a way to block sites on guests. This
stops a lot of issues with abuse, let alone giving the ability to block guest
from various things. You could block guest from doing anything but wonder
around if you wanted.
Ari isn't 100% serious, Trispis. :)
Bobby_Newmark says "guests are a better way to get new users. I know that i
personally don't go anywhere by random chance if they wont let melog in as a
guest. and I'm not a bad person, IMO :)"
Trispis says "Not to be too sarcastic, but... if everyone had that attitude,
there wouldn't ever be any new players."
Ari says "I know."
Ari says "It's not my actual attitude...I'm always less than totally serious.
:)"
Trispis says "Eventually MU-ing would die from attrition."
Shire has connected.
Bobby_Newmark says "trispis: that's what's happening on MUSE-based worlds."
Ari says "But, guest characters should be for information gathering only."
Bobby_Newmark uses guests to talk to people on the game I'm trying to reach :)

Guest1 has disconnected.
Ari says "They should perhaps be given access to a small area to give the feel
for MU* commands. They should be able to talk on a recruiting channel to get
information. Etc. But they should not have the privileges of actual players,
codewise."
Walker says "why not block all communication from guest except talking? and
limit that to a short length, like 100 characters."
Trispis says "Penn has a feature to disable many commands from guest use in
the config (setting commands 'no guest'). If you don't want them to be able to
speak, page, read +help, etc., just disable them for guests. Let the guests
wander around with only access to 'news' and 'go'."
Ari says "Again, though, that's administrative policy: as Trispis just said,
most servers allow restrictions on guests."
Jamie says "Ok, this seems like a good place to move on. What about the player
who comes with the intention of harrassing a particular person, be that by
spamming them, spreading rumors about them in public places, ect...Do we
simply @boot that person, do we try to sort out what's going on, what in your
opinions would a good administrator do?"
Ari says "You could @nuke the person that they're harrassing. ;)"
Walker laughs!
Trispis chuckles.
Trispis says "What if they're harassing Ari?"
Jamie says "lol"
Trispis says "I suppose that'd be an exception, eh?"
Walker harrasses Ari to see what he does
Bobby_Newmark says "jamie: someone with bad intentions should be banned if
they have a continual pattern of harassment on that particular game."
Bobby_Newmark says "but you can't judge a user by their actions on a different
game."
Ari @nuke Ari ;)
Shire notes that he would really try to sort the problem out. I think pulling
the harrasser aside quickly, and talking to hem could deal with it. If not, I
would be included to start with an @boot, moving on to a @sitelock if needed."

Ashen-Shugar sticks to the policy no cross-mush politics. If they're on th
emush to just cause problems, I don't care the reason, they're gone.
Ari says "I hope nobody here supports OtherSpace's policy on this kind of
thing."
Shire nods to Ashen, "I agree 100% , even if they are a friend ElseMU, I won't
let them cause trouble. As an admin, you need to be impartial at all times."
Trispis says "I have a perfect example to give you, if you'd like, Jamie."
Jamie says "go ahead Tris."
Bobby_Newmark says "what is OtherSpace's policy?"
Trispis says "I only exist (actively) on M*U*S*H. I don't play anywhere else.
I'm a "single game only" type player."
Trispis says "I've been harassed before. Directly, personally, intentionally.
(No names mentioned)"
Ari says "@personal_grudge and @be_an_idiot are both aliases for
@nuke;@sitelock ;)"
Trispis says "I didn't know the guy from Adam (nothign personal to people
named Adam, either)"
Walker suggests adding @harass which, according to the help files, harrasses,
but in fact, @boots you *grin*
Trispis says "He just decided it was his place to harass me."
Kalain says "We investigate. If the harassmentis found to be true, then they
get the @boot. The higher-up admins on the MUSH can decide (as a whole. It has
to be a vote) to siteban. No one person on our MUSH can siteban a person."
Trispis says "We dealt with it (on M*U*S*H) in a very professional manner,
IMO... and it lead to a new system, even. The event, itself, was annoying to
me personally, but in the end the whole MUSH benefited."
Jamie says "let's take this a step further, and I'll give an example."
Ari likes the jury-type system for dealing with that kind of thing, but thinks
that there should be a quicker method in place for /real/ idiots. ;)
Naze has disconnected.
Shire nods, "It is an OOC-Jail, which does not allow for say, page, +bbread,
nor anything else."
China wonders what the new system on M*U*S*H is, Trispis refered to.
Jamie says "the harrassing person uses some trick to fool Penn into not
recognizing his IP (or he had 20+ shell accounts). @boot'ing him didnt do any
good, @sitelock was also useless because of the shere number of different IPs
he was able to have at his reach."
Trispis bets this group would appreciate M*U*S*H's system.
Bobby_Newmark says ":is currently being, and for the past 2 years has been,
harrassed by one user. and he's harassing me because I warned a female friend
of mine that he likes to sleep around, which was true, and I didn't want to
see her hurt. so now he torments me :)"
Walker once saw a system where, in case an admin wasn't around, 3 players
could key in the command and it would boot the player and ban them for a
specified length of time, such as 5-15 minutes.
Javelin says "He has 20+ shell accounts, Jamie."
Trispis says "Oooh. Nice, Walker. *makes a mental note*"
Javelin . o O (probably mostly stolen or freebies)
Ashen-Shugar noddles to Javelin "Time to have a 24 hour register-site."
Jamie says "you remember what I'am talking about Jav?"
Javelin thinks os.
Ashen-Shugar hurms to Walker "Dangerous if the twink is also a hacker."
Jamie says "what would you do in a situation like that? I had to resort to
disabling guests and registration."
Bobby_Newmark says "yes. @blacklist was created for morons just as described.
they can have as many shell accoutns as you want. . @blacklist is a lock. it
can be used to say "I don't wanna talk to x, Y and Z, or, it can be made to
say "I only want to talk to X, Y and Z..."
Jamie says "till the harrasser just gave up."
Shire steps it up, "What do you do when you have an admin that has been fired,
or is not fired, but just demented, and he starts harassing staff for things,
or even worse, he starts harassing players?"
Ari says "Or @nuking #[rand()]"
Ashen-Shugar would probably compile a list and send it to the appropiate
ISP(s). 20 different accounts start to break some ISP guidelines for
purposiful hacking of remote systems. Yes, it's a game, but as it's on a
different machine, it'll fall into that protection.
Javelin would do something similar, Jamie, but also firewall the IPs in use
away from any pennmush.org resource.
Trispis says "Contact their sysadmins, progressively moving upward to their
ISP and backbone providers, Jamie."
Javelin says "Plus what A-S and Tris said."
Ari notes that ISP's never respond. :(
Javelin has had them respond.
Shire has aswell.
Ari is trying to trace a guy down that broke into his development box and had
no response for 5 days.
Javelin says "Especially when it's been one of their machines cracked by
someone."
Ashen-Shugar has gotten over 20 accounts yanked for attempted hacking a game.
All they need is logs and proof.
Bobby_Newmark says "if an admin gets out of line, and they don't run the game,
they get demoted. if the admin runs the game, the people must organize and
leave the game."
<DB> Save!
<DB> Done.
Jamie says "to think though that one person could essentially close down a
game to new players just because he cant play nice isnt acceptable policy
though. At least I dont think it is."
Ashen-Shugar notes other than blocking every single ip/dns the person comes
from, the only immediate response is setting the site register only and
blocking guests.
Shire says, "In my experiance, an admin is very trusted. Weather fired and
allowed to play the game or not, im my books, they start harassigng other
players or other staff, they are nuke'd right away. I just feel that admins
are very trusted..."
Trispis says "Jamie, the incident you're talking about was directed at
M*U*S*H/pennmush.org, as well. We're still open for guests with no
registration. (Admittedly, Jav had to work *VERY* hard to achieve this... and
almost totally single-handedly, for which I am very grateful.)"
Ashen-Shugar notes especially with all the programs these script kiddies can
download that mask ip header information and can alter the dns, and mangled
firewalls that do weird things for reverse dns/auth lookups, it's difficult to
block everything.
Bobby_Newmark says "sitelocking doesn't work."
Ari says "True. The people that don't care to get around it don't have a
reason to, and those that do, do."
Javelin says "If someone really wants to bring you down, and they have
prerequisite skills, the fact is that nothing short of registration works."
Bobby_Newmark says "what you can do, however, is log the sessions, and ask the
user to cease and desist, and if they continue, tell them they are harassing
you and others or whatever and that you wish for them to stop."
Ashen-Shugar noddles to Javelin.
Shire looks to Jav, "And even then Javelin...."
Ashen-Shugar notes if you have hardware access, you can also put in a packet
sniffer and use that to reverse engineer the location.
Javelin says "Sitelocking works very well for one level of idiot. Firewalling
for another. Nothing works for a third unless you're lucky."
Bobby_Newmark says "after collecting enough of a log where it's made clear you
asked them to stop, and made it so you can prove they are who they are, file a
harassment lawsuit.. it only takes a few bucks, but will teach the person a
little lesson :)"
Javelin says "right, Bobby - if you're lucky enough to trace their RL address.
:)"
Bobby_Newmark says "I know all my abusers. :)"
Shire grins.
Ari says "Wanna track mine down? I'll give you $100."
Ari ;)
Bobby_Newmark says "the main problem, is that he's a canadian. but it'd be fun
to do because it'd prevent him from coming to the states without being taken
into custody :)"
Bobby_Newmark says "I know someone who could track them down. :)"
Shire steps it upor is not firedand he starts harassing staff for thingshe
starts harassing players? What if they are just nuking randon players?"
Shire eeks.
Locke ACKS!@
Ashen-Shugar notes in a nutshell, I think we're at this point. IF you're faced
with a grade A hacker, there's not much you can do to save it. You can put inh
all the DoS/spam/etc protectino you want, but the user will then just use FUD
tactis or attack the users online. You can't be everywhere at once, on at all
times at once. The most you can do is hope you never annoy something at that
skill level.
Jamie says "Shire, calm down... ;)"
Ashen-Shugar mentions at this opportune time the NOFLASH flag :)
Shire did not mean to do that.
Shire sorries.
Locke promptly sets that flag o_o;
Splat has arrived.
Locke also wonders why it is that no one *ELSE* has ever coded one of thoser
Ashen-Shugar snugs Splat "long time ol' timer."
Shire grins to Splat.
Ashen-Shugar grins to Locke "No idea. I find it immensely useful :)"
Splat waves. Gee.. I am an old timer now, aren't I ;)
Locke chuckles
Locke intones "Alot of things I wonder about that..."
Shire nods, "When you code for SW:ANT, and do it more than the HC, and code
longer than I have been alive, yes Splat, you are an old timer."
Locke intones "Ideas that are nbotably nice ones, but seem limeted to being
*done* solely in MUCK or Rhost"
Locke intones "well, aside from me own modifications.. but THose are still
being worked out o_o"
Trispis says "Are we drifting?"
Jamie says "well let's step over that hurdle and take a look at people with
the intention to cause harm to the game itself?"
Ashen-Shugar is openly willing to give code/ideas to any hardcoder who wants
it. I believe I already mentioned that to you all :)
Splat says "Anyone mind paging me what we're talking about?"
Locke chuckles
Locke could use some, just to see if they're ones he's aplready working on ;)
Locke has already pored the age-old concept of saystrings from their
previously MUCK only heritage
Jamie says "the type of person who's out to bring the game down or to grab as
much code as he can or to just generally ruin *everyone* else's fun."
Ashen-Shugar grins "yea, we got @saystring, too."
Locke nods
Shire blabers "Yes we do here."
Bobby_Newmark notes that MUSE and other tinymud variants are very different.
Locke intones "Rhost was the only other place I'd seen it.. ^^;"
Ashen-Shugar notes MURE had it for a time as well I believe.
Bobby_Newmark is trying to figure out how come softcode is different. and who
changed it. and when. and why.
Locke intones "I've got one set, don't I? ;P"
Ashen-Shugar nods :)
Javelin nods to Jamie.
Jamie says "mind getting back on topic people? ;)"
Locke intones "Softcode went in to a really odd branhing inn Tinymud
varients... and things like MUF popped up..."
Locke ahems, and nods to Jamie
Bobby_Newmark says "MAZE, a muse variant, has a basic interpreter :)"
Ashen-Shugar grins "It's what happens when you get a bunch of hardcode geeks
in a room. It always degresses to toys, bells, and whistles :)"
Bobby_Newmark says "crap. i might hbave a meeting now. *finds out*"
Locke chuckles
Walker ponders a C++ scripting language
Walker grins
Shire says, "Back to topic now."
Jamie repeatz for those who are finally getting their attention under control.
;)
Jamie says "well let's step over that hurdle and take a look at people with
the intention to cause harm to the game itself?"
Shire thinks that kind of player should be shot.
Ashen-Shugar grins.
Jamie says "the type of person who's out to bring the game down or to grab as
much code as he can or to just generally ruin *everyone* else's fun."
Ashen-Shugar has a unique way to get rid of those kind of players.
Splat says "For players who really want to bring the site down, my first
approach would be a severe warning (For a failed attempt) or an immediate
sitelock, obviously, for a successful attempt. Threatening to call people's
ISPs usually scare's 'em good."
Shire says, "Kicked off, never allowed, and their name and HOST passwed around
a mailing lsist or two."
Shire sorries for the spelling.
Ashen-Shugar notes you don't outright @boot, @nuke, or destroy said player,
you put them into a situation where life for them on the mush is so annoying
they *want* to leave. If they lave on their *own* accord, they are less likely
to come back and/or to cause problems.
Splat says "I've threatened to call someone's ISP once, and the kids parents
found off and kicked him off his computer for a while."
Shire acks and notices, "Sorry, I have not introduced myself yet. I am Shire,
Rules and REgulations Officer here (Kinda like HJ), Norm LeGuard on SW:ANT,
Shire on M*U*S*H, and other people, other places. SOrry for not doing that."
Ashen-Shugar has something on rhostmush that allows you to individually
disable commands on a player. ON a particularilly nasty turdball, he got so
fed up with seeing 'huh?' messages from valid commands he just left for good.
Javelin thinks Ashen-Shugar has a point. I generally find that GAGGED is very
handy.
Splat says "Yes, Ash, but if you run a big MUSH you face a problem where some
players are more satisfied with the general MUSH situation than others. By
pissing off one player, we could lose other players that aren't as annoying."
Splat says "That, in fact, has happened several times on SW:ANT"
Shire nods.
Ashen-Shugar notes you can annoy them in such a way it's private to them so
others are not aware of it, Splat.
Shire has seen it happen ther splat.
Splat nods. With lots of players, word gets out.
Splat says "There's still a Splat hate webpage up.."
Ashen-Shugar nods "Agreed. It's 6 of 1 half a dozen of another. Leaving a
problem player on also looses players. Lesser of two evils."
Javelin notes, while we're on this topic, that I would never @nuke a serious
twink. @newpassword them and set them HALT (so they can't control themselves
via mudnet if you use it), and then keep them around so you never forget their
site(s), etc.
Shire says, "Okay, what would do as an admin, if you saw another admin do that
to a player, like gag them from a channel, and then, mock that player? I have
seen that."
Ashen-Shugar notes I don't agree in openly mock them. I deal with subtilly.
Splat nods. We do that, Jav.
Trispis says "China asked earlier, and I think this is a good place to
interject this..."
China nods to Trispis.
Jamie says "interject away. ;)"
Arcondra has arrived.
Shire notes that he has only ever seen a player get mocked once on any MUSH
for being bad. That was...well, maybe it is better left unsaid. The said
player was VERY rude and did a lot fo bad things, but it really degreades the
MUSH as a whole when an admin lowers themselves to that level.
Trispis says "With lots of discussion among M*U*S*H's admin for guidance, I
softcoded an administrative +sanction system. It works in progression, with
user-definable options along the way. It is automated, so that it appears to
come from the same source no matter which admin uses it (so they can't react
directly to any single admin, based on the source of their punishment).
(continued...)"
Trispis says "+sanction1 simply sends a warning to the player, telling them
they've done something bad and to re-read the 'news AUP'."
Trispis says "+sanction1 also sets the SUSPECT flag."
Shire nods, "SW:ANT has the +warning system."
Splat nods. That's slightly different though.
Shire nods.
Splat says "We also +comment players.."
Shire says, "And the other system..the special FLAG that was added. Dunno if I
can say it exists, since I am not the admin from there."
Trispis says "+sanction2 (also sends a message) implements a specific
punishment (chan/nochat/gagged) for a user configurable time (expressed in
hours)."
Ashen-Shugar thinks in all honesty, it's difficult to have 'set guidelines'.
Each situation with each player and each server it happens on is always unique
in one way or another. You have to use past judgements, history, and any
noticable trends to judge the right action.
Trispis says "+s2 lasts for the specified time, and is removed automatically)"

Jamie says "we used to have the TWINK flag on the old penn adminmush. It
worked similiar to slave except it disabled ALL commands except QUIT."
Shire nods to A-S, "But we are wondering, because this will help us each deal
with problems."
Trispis says "+sanction3 is like +s2, but is indefinite removal of the
specified priv."
Ashen-Shugar nods "Oh, I agree."
Trispis says "+sanction4 is indefinite gagged."
Ashen-Shugar grins "You mean FUBAR, Jamie? :)"
Splat laughs.
Ashen-Shugar grins to Splat "Hey, I like that flag."
Jamie says "actually Ash, I was thinking of slave in MUSE terms. I had
forgotten about FUBAR."
Trispis says "+s2's can be given to minor offenders (people who occassionally
blurt profanities by accident, simply because they haven't yet learned to
control their tongue, for example)."
Trispis says "The idea is... to remove any "personal" nature of the
punishment. the sanction comes from "the whole admin team"."
Locke intones "hm"
China says "do the sanctions go beyond 4, Trispis? And who decides when to
remove the indefinite ones?"
Javelin does.
Javelin says "At 4, they've got to email me, personally, and we have a little
chat by email."
Trispis has intended to @decompile this and put it on ftp.pennmush.org, but
... well, I've never been really proud of my softcode (my personal
kluge-fests).
Jamie says "would you be willing to put this system into the public domain
Trispis so that others might benefit from it? It does sound like a good idea
to assist admin."
Trispis says "All appeals of any +sanction must be directed to Javelin, and
only Javelin, China."
China says "hey... if it works, who cares? :)"
Locke intones "though still, there is always, even with a system such as that,
rasied the issue of inter-administratory desciusions... and that at times,
some of the admins mayu disagree with one admins choice to use it..."
Trispis says "It removes the potential for one admin undoing the sanction of
another admin (I punish China, she whines to Grinna who undoes it. <-- bad
idea)"
China nods. "and I meant the 'if works, who cares?" like toward the style of
coding. :)
Trispis would have to talk to Jav (since it is a global on his game), but
sure... I'd release it.
Arcondra murmurs "I have to disagree.. if there isn't comunication between
wizzes before the +santion is set, the possiblity is still there."
China says "I like the decision to reverse being directed to an 'outside'
sourse."
Locke nods at Arcondra, "Twas what I wass thinking
Splat says "At ANT, we have a policy against "admin circling" about anything..
punishments, approvals, whatever."
Javelin has no objections. "And I echo Arcondra about the communication
thing."
Trispis says "For most players, this +sanction system has been very effective.
It makes the player actually *think* about their actions."
Kalain says "I think the +sanction code would be good, but I do still think
the admins should discuss it."
Ashen-Shugar notes it's why you have to have the 'final say' of the head god.
Right or wrong, that person's decision has to stand. If it's to be reversed,
it *has* to be by that head god.
Locke intones "A situation like that can only be made worse if you get the
admins into arguments about it"
Kalain says "Of course if there are logs of the situation, it makes the
decision easier. ;)"
Trispis says "Oh, yeah, Arcondra. We have guidelines for use of the command.
The admin are encouraged to confer with each other before applying the
+sanction. In fact, they're encouraged to ask another admin to actually do it,
if possible."
Shire nods, "However, the admins should function as a oneness unit.
Javelin also offers our code for tracking all the sites a player has ever
connected from and factoring out variations on the same site (i.e. different
ppp dialups, etc.) and for searching for players who match a site.
Ashen-Shugar wouldn't mind that code, Javvy. Saves me from having to write it
:)
Javelin nods. It was a hassle, too.
Javelin says "This is softcode, btw."
Ashen-Shugar nods "Which is why I said I'd not mind the code, cuz I know it's
a hassle :)"
Trispis nods about the LASTSITES bit... we also have a +sitecheck (to check if
a players LASTSITE matches the collected LASTSITES of any other players...
possibly known to be troublesome).
Splat nods. That's a good idea.
Javelin . o O (Hence the reason for never nuking twinks, only newpasswording)
Javelin . o O (They turn into a db of twink-sites :)
Ashen-Shugar usually @toads them instead of @Nuking.
China likes all these ideas.
Trispis says "Jav coded the bit for collecting LASTSITES, and I wrote the
accompanying +sitecheck (basically a lsearch())"
Locke shall be back momentarily...
Jamie says "Ok, Ash has whispered a good point to me to bring up and I'am sure
you'll all have varying opinions on this...I recall once seeing a bboard
discussion on this actually fill the bboard up completely. ;)"
Locke intones "Lunch time..."
Kalain says "Javelin, the MUSH I'm an admin on would be interested in that
code, and the +sanction code if that becomes available."
Locke ought to grab some food before server maintainance beigns again andnhe
loses his change
Trispis says "Anyway... I wanted to get that +sanction bit out there. It has
been VERY effective for M*U*S*H."
Locke intones "Chance"
Shire nods, "Likewise for the one I code for."
Jamie says "TS, TS with underage players, and just TS in general. Is this a
problem? are they problem players? if so what would you do?"
Trispis says "Any of you who frequent M*U*S*H, feel free to nag me to
@decompile +sanction and make an install script appropriately on some
weekend."
Javelin says "Anyone who wants the LASTSITES code, email
dunemush@pennmush.org. And Tris'll put +sanction up for ftp."
Bobby_Newmark is back. sorry. work happened
Javelin has never had a TS problem, so will just listen. :)
Splat says "What about RPed TS between ICly underaged people? We've had that
problem before."
Trispis says "TS is psychological masturbation, IMO (even removing the RL
masturbation which accompanies it)."
Ari just thinks anyone who'd contemplate tinysex is pathetic.
Bobby_Newmark says "TS is silly. On the other hand, I have found that in the
MUSE world, there's a problem that occurs from RL encounters between users.
Mainly, it drives wedges between two people when the long distance
relationship fails and causes the social groups to break apart into smaller
cliques."
Ashen-Shugar is more worried about RPed TS between a RL underaged person and a
non-underaged person. The FBI has shut down chat sites for this alone.
Kalain says "I've run into a problem of actual TS rape. One player wanted itm
the other didn't..."
Trispis learned about it during his first year of MUSHing. It took a total of
1 experience for me to realize it was bad mojo. It's the kind of thing that
leads old men (like myself) to the potential of being arrested for internet
child molestation (how the hell do I know that girl, if she is a girl at all,
is actually of legal age?).
Ari feels that anything that happens ICly is the responsibility of the
characters (note: not the players).
Splat says "In situations like this, we have a consent system, and a fade to
black policy."
Javelin doesn't think TS is silly or pathetic or masturbation, but also has
rarely ound it a problem issue.
Bobby_Newmark says "in the MUSE arena, we don't have many, if any, under 18
users anymore."
Splat says "It's never actually occured on SWANT though."
Shire nosd, "Splat knows, one mf my old friend's, he was on SW:ANT, and
proceeded to almost TS RAPE a woman. He should have been sitelocked."
Ashen-Shugar notes TS is more an issue on heavilly RP intensive mushes.
Ari thinks Bobby typoed that 81. ;)
Guest2 has disconnected.
Bobby_Newmark says "ari: I dunno. most MUSE people are all 20+ :)"
Ashen-Shugar idles for a meeting in RL.
Splat says "Seeya Ash"
Bobby_Newmark says "in the muse world (back on a slightly old topic, but since
work happened I will comment now), we had a problem with users in nanaimo :)"
Splat says "Go on"
Trispis says "When MUSH 101 was a standalone game, we had strong 'anti-TS'
policies (don't let us find out about it, or we'll ban you from the game). But
that's mostly because we designed our theme to encourage new (i.e.,
potentially under legal age of consent) players to join our game. Beyond that,
I'd say it's a personal issue. A personal choice of how daring you want to be
on the net, or how appropriate/necessary it is for your RP."
Minkar has disconnected.
China says "I don't see TS as a problem if done privately, unless it's with
someone unwiling, or done with someone underage."
Kalain says "We have very strict consent rules. And we're a PG-13 MUSH."
Jamie says "with me it's not really that big of a deal. If two consenting
adults (that's where the big risk comes in, knowing if it's two consenting
adults) want to TS, then let em as long as it's done outside of public
venues."
Trispis says "Personally, I think it's bad mojo, though. If your character and
some other character needs to have intercourse (say, to create an heir to the
throne, for example), this can be achieved by factual assertion (we "did the
deed in private"), without actually RP-ing or claiming a bunch of X-rated
stuff (we "did it doggy style")."
China says "to kiss and tell, is not 'adult'. :)"
Splat nods. Personally, I find it to have no place on a SW MU*, but people do
it, in private, and it's fine, because we couldn't enforce the rule.
Jamie says "Trispis, that also depends on the players. Just because they
choose to TS does that make them problem players or twinks?"
Walker says "on an SW mush, don't stick Kirk with Yeoman Rand"
China says "adn if they do it 'privately' and maybe the usage souold be 'keep
it private'. Who's to know they're doing toding anything?"
Trispis says "Like I said. It's my personal opinion."
Splat says "Kirk isn't SW..."
Kalain says "It doesn't make them problem players, UNLESS one doesn't
consent."
Walker meant ST
Trispis says "I choose not to. I do not begrudge others if they choose to do
so."
China deletes her 'toding' from her last line.
Splat says "So what do we do about underage people? Do we ask people? Or do we
ignore it entirely?"
China says "personally I don't care what two concenting 'adults' do with their
free time. I know Captain Kirk never let the Enterprise go down in flames
cause he comm'd he was 'other wise occupied at the moment'."
Trispis says "That's why I choose not to, Splat. Too many unknowns."
Javelin thinks China hasn't read the books he's read. :)
Jamie says "she's also not into your line of work Jav. ;)"
Splat says "That's what we do too. We're safe, because we have no knowledge
that these people are underage."
China says "Kirk did let the Engerprise 'die' while 'busy'? :("
Locke intones "When TS is an RP matter, I think, it holds mostly to a matter
of A> consent, and B> privacy... like any other matter of RP, if one person
does nae OOCly concent to it, its powergaming just as if it were combat... And
if they do, then it moves on to the matter of privacy, its a private sort of
RP, and what any two characters/players decide they want to RP out of the
public eye is their own bluidy choice. As long as they are nae doing it in a
public area"
Trispis says "If they are underaged, your ignorance of that won't keep the FBI
from sending you to prison if the victim's parents discover it and press
charges."
Javelin . o O (*giggles* and thinks about the "KS" genre of fanporn, in which
Kirk and Spock are lovers into hardcode BDSM)
Splat says "Charges of what?"
Ari has to run..
Arcondra murmurs "a MUCK I was on when I first started had an Over 18 flag..
it was set by the player as a statement of age. it simply covered the MUCK
from liabilites.."
Locke nods
Ari says "Later....Jamie, mail me the log if you would. :)"
Ari has disconnected.
China says "er.. I was refering to tv shows, Jav. I don't read 'those' books.
:)"
Locke intones "And any area which were 'adult' oriented, requires this flag be
set for a player to enter...."
Bobby_Newmark says "on deMUSE we conform only to state law in teh state in
which we operate. which is kentucky :)"
Trispis says "Contributing to the dilinquency of a minor, psychological abuse
of a minor, so on and so forth."
Locke intones "if someone esets this, and is not in fact of legal age, then
its fraud upon the part of the player..."
Arcondra nods to locke, who was on said MUCK.
Trispis smiles. Rewrite the laws if you think you can hide behind 'that minor
lied about their age'.
Shire notes that a MUSH simply needs a disclaimer.
Splat says "Well, who do they sue? Our ISP? The payer of the account? Me?"
Shire notes they cannot sue, as long as a warning is in place.
Shire says, "Like websites, with porn."
Javelin says "They can always sue. Maybe, they can't win."
Trispis says "If a minor uses a fake ID to enter a bar and drink alcoholic
beverages, the bartender is still liable for serving alcohol to a minor in
MANY instances."
Splat says "Yes, but we are not serving TS."
Javelin says "But they can cost you enough to make it not worth your while. I
had been planning to run an all-child MUSH, and I was going to get parental
permission forms."
Shire shakes his head to Trispis, "Actually, no. I work in a Casino, if the
Minor produces ID, which, looks real, and I cannot tell is fake, then I am no
longer liable."
Trispis says "If you're *having* TS with a minor..."
Jamie says "Ok, time to reign it in again. We're getting way off topic. Does
anyone else have any points that they would like to bring up about problematic
players/twinks?"
Bobby_Newmark says "The best wayt to resolve a situation is with an unbiased
3rd party. whether that be admin or otherwise."
Splat says "It is something illegal that is happening on our server. Should
EFnet or any of the other major IRC networks be responsible for what they
transmit?"
Bobby_Newmark says "should AT&T and responsible for what's said on the phone?"

Splat says "I have something.."
Arcondra grins at jamie, "you started it."
Bobby_Newmark says "should gun manufacturers be responsible for gun crimes?"
Bobby_Newmark says "oh wait.. :)"
Trispis says "Should the owner of the parking lot be held liable for the drug
deals people engage in thereon?"
Locke is nae even going to go there
Javelin notes that there's some technical legal issues around 'common carrier'
status, Splat. If you're not responsible for what you transmit, you may be
required to not monitor/censor/etc any transmissions, either.
Trispis says "But should and will are two different things entirely."
China says "no. A gun is only a tool. As good or as bad as the man who uses
it."
Walker peers at bobby, "Should 100 hunters and 100 gun owners with self
defense guns have to give up their lifestyle and safety because 1 guy shot
somebody?
Splat says "On another note, how far should wizards go to prove a player they
think is lying, is lying?"
Arcondra murmurs "it's not a tool. it's a weapon, but back to twinks."
Trispis says "suspect logs, splat."
Trispis says "I do have another issue, though, Jamie..."
Jamie says "please Trispis. ;)"
China quoted the author who wrote "Shane".
Trispis says "The use of logs in adjudicating player misconduct."
Jamie says "good one. Thoughts? Comments?"
Bobby_Newmark usues suspect logs only in severe harassment cases, or in cases
where someone keeps crashing the game every time I'm 20 minutes idle.
Trispis says "How do you determine how much "tampering" has been done?"
Trispis says "I regularly edit any logs I send to Javelin (to remove
irrelevant spam, simplifying his job)."
Arcondra murmurs "as far as telling how much of the log actually occured?"
Trispis says "Does this mean I can't be trusted?"
Jamie says "in other words how do you determine if the log is in fact what
really happened?"
Locke intones "Well, though its not suspect logs, when asessing a complaint
log from a player..."
Splat says "What about reading the maildb?"
Locke intones "I'd find it prudent to simply verify with someone else who may
have seen it happen, or the target of the complaint"
Splat says "Or some way of watching players in real time?"
Locke intones "Even the worst of twinks, will rarely outright deny the
contents of a log unless its been changed, merely the harm of what they did"
Arcondra murmurs "we don't want to go big brother on the world."
Trispis says "Right. How do you determine a log submitted by playerX (playerY
was harrassing him) hasn't been edited (removing pages of playerX to playerZ,
who as in turn harassing playerY)?"
Javelin usually takes all player-mailed logs with a grain of salt, and goes
and talks one-on-one with the people involved about what happened.
China says "or how well you know your players. Particularly the one filing the
complaint."
Locke points at his previous commenfor Trispis, and nods at Jav
Splat says "I'd only truly trust admin's log. If player a logs player b and
player b says the log is fake, we have to believe him unless other proof can
be found."
Javelin . o O (Unless they're all SUSPECT)
Locke intones "its an administrative judgement call, I'd say"
Shire nods, "I would have to talk to other admins on that one."
Jamie says "in enough cases to make it relevent though the players in question
arent set suspect at the time of the incident."
Shire would have to find out that person's general demenor, past, ect.
Arcondra murmurs "mostly I'd say refering it to past experience.. is player Y
a known trouble maker, or do they have a vendetta against player X?"
Trispis says "This is one more reason why our +sanction1 sets the suspect
flag. Once we determine (via the SUSPECT logs) that this player has, indeed,
learned to behave, we can remove the SUSPECT flag."
China says "I think all situations need investigated, not jsut assumed on
hearsay, or evidence that can be tampered with."
Locke intones "It helps in this situation, also, indeed, to make sure that ye,
as an admin responsible with that sort of thing, knows the players they must
deal with on thier MU*..."
Splat says "What I'm trying to get at is.. is it ethical to log/read mail of
players that you aren't certain have committed a rule violation?"
Locke intones "Thoughnit becomes more difficult on larger MU*s.... Its still a
necessity"
Trispis says "Splat, you're treading on miranda and search warrant issues
(from US law). It's a touchy subject. Reasonable suspicion, and all that."
Trispis says "I suppose it boils down to administrative style."
Javelin says "that only applies to the police, Tris."
Javelin says "Not to private citizens."
Trispis says "Right."
Trispis says "Which is why I made the administrative style comment."
Arcondra murmurs "but what laws trispis, have boundery on an international
data world."
Arcondra murmurs "?"
China knows from personal experiance most sexual harrasements have been though
pages.
Splat says "I know we have the legal right to log everything that goes through
since we own the game..."
Trispis points up ^^^, "Please don't assume I'm asserting that admins should
abide by precidents set in US law. I was simply using that as a point of
reference. I said specifically, 'It's a touchy subject'"
Arcondra murmurs "we do splat, IF we tell them that's what we do."
Splat nods. That's why I brought it up as a point of discussion.
Arcondra murmurs "but personally I don't like doing that."
Trispis says "Reading the mail of other people bores me."
Locke intones "Its somewhere between legal and ethical, logging everything
*is* allowed, but if its not informed of, and perused without due cause, and
word get sout.. you *WILL* lose players... Players covet their privacy"
China says "and least mine have been. But I'm not saying pages now to start
being logged by the mushes, just that 'my log' and my word are all I have to
give. Beside the fact the person usualy gains a rep for similar actions to
others with time too."
Trispis says "I'm actually more interested in who is involved, than I am in
the content. Is playerX actually carrying on a conversation with playerY when
they say they're not? Stuff like that."
Splat says "It's against SWANT admin rules to read mail, and only people with
site access (The God, HW, and Head coder) can get at the logs."
Trispis says "Tell Javelin to leave me alone; p javelin=You're a jerk.;He's
bothering me.;p javelin=And if you don't stop, I'm gonna have my friend hack
your server.;He's being so mean to me. I want you to make him stop, cuz I
haven't done *anything* to provoke this."
Trispis says "^^ that's the kind of thing I actually discover. And it's not
the content, really. It's the dishonesty (I haven't done *anything* to provoke
this.)"
Javelin must go, alas. Thanks for the interesting discussion, folks. Nice one,
Jamie. :)
Trispis waves!
Splat says "It's common, especially for newbies, to misinterpret the rules or
their "rights""
Javelin has disconnected.
Kalain waves. "Thanks, Javelin, for offering the LASTSITES codce."
Trispis says "oooh. 'player rights' -- another nasty issue."
Splat says "I have this little speech I keep around SW.. one sec."
Arcondra thinks the matter could be simlified somewhat with a bill of players
rights..
Splat quotes: MUSHing here is a /privilege/, not a right! It is /our/ game,
and we can run it how we want. We try to make it fun and fair for everyone,
but if you don't like playing here, leave! We are not corrupt, and we are not
out to get you. We have good reasons behind everything we do, but it doesn't
matter. This is not a democracy. Whining at the admin and making your problems
public only serves to make things worse.
Trispis says "Players have only one right on M*U*S*H. They have the right to
play elsewhere if they don't like our game."
China waves.
Arcondra sees she's on the oposite side of the fence from most other admin.
Locke intones "A player should also have the right, or at least the justified
expectation, of a fair and just administration team"
Splat says "Some people believe players should be allowed to control what
happens on the MUSH a bit. But when you're running a big MUSH with a lot of
newbies, it would be disaster. Fair and just, yeah, but what does that mean?
Not to hold grudges? Our grudges are very justified."
China says "I agree the admins should be fair, but if I find it's not, I
leave."
Splat says "Admins should not say, give their RL friends IC advantages."
Kalain says "Players do have rights. They have the right to not be harassed.
They have the right to be treated fairly. They have the right to be able to
approach the admins with a problem and to be heard out."
Trispis says "Like I said. You have the right to play elsewhere if you don't
like our game."
Jamie says "it's the 'go find another sandbox' theory."
Splat says "My thoughts exactly."
Trispis says "Well, it's the 'this is my sandbox' theory."
Arcondra looks at tris, "that's a bit of over simplification.
Splat heads off for a while. Maybe I'll BBL.
Trispis says "Not really."
Splat has disconnected.
Jamie thinkz the firewall is about to start dropping people again.
Arcondra murmurs "ultimately it is true.. but a player should be able to
expect some things.."
Trispis says "Javelin has said this numerous times. M*U*S*H only exists
because it gives him enjoyment to host it. Once it ceases to give him
enjoyment (on balance), he'll shut it down."
China says "I know games players left, cause of admins."
Trispis says "Same applies to individual players. You make his life miserable,
you get banned."
Trispis says "Meanwhile, you have the right to leave voluntarily, if you don't
like that."
Locke intones "But a MU* is something more than merely the playground for its
admins"
Kalain says "I'm a player first. I always have beem. I always will be. Without
the players, there's no point to having the MUSH or the admins."
Trispis says "Players are free to expect that they won't be spied upon unless
they're suspected of violoating policy somehow. <-- M*U*S*H's AUP states this,
in fact. But it's not a "right to be never spied on". It's an expectation of
fairness which M*U*S*H happens to support."
Locke intones "While yes, those responsible for its creation, its maintanance,
should quaff some enjoyment from it, a MU* exists for those who use it for
what it is, admin *or* player... There is less seperation between the two than
some on either side of the fence would think..."
Trispis says "Please keep in mind that I am endeavoring now (now that Jav
dc'd) to provide whole perspective from M*U*S*H. The fact of the matter is: I
personally believe players (specifically the new, clueless variety) DO have
rights. They have the right to a bit of trial and error in this overwhelming
new world of text-based interaction. They have a right to a second chance
(even a third or fourth if they're actually learning each time). But, Javelin
also has the right to shutdown a player or the whole game if it's becoming a
nuisance for him to leave that player or the game online. I see both sides,
really."
Locke intones "here also, trispis, comes a divergence.. between a social MU*,
and one with a specified purpouse... like a purely RP based MU*"
Arcondra murmurs "tris.. this isn't politics.. prevent your own viewpoint, not
that of your party."
Trispis says "Players should be able to expect that they can participate on a
game without being harassed. But that doesn't mean they can expect to be able
to harass other players and get away with it."
China says "I agree Lock, players should 'want' a fair game, or stalked/spied
on, and a number of things. But you can't MAKE rules that 'each game' god
'has' to abide by. It's not a cd-rom type set up. You can join a group of guys
playing baseball on the next block. You all know the basic rules to 'play' the
game, but if they choose to cheat and tassle you, your best off leaving and
finding a 'niceer' group to play with."
Arcondra changes that prevent to present.
Trispis says "I do present my viewpoints. I also present the fact that my
viewpoints don't always agree with the administration I am part of, but which
I understand and condone."
Locke nods to China, "Nae, of course you can't, tis the responsibiloity of any
admbin as to how they run it... But still, it remains that there is the
general expectation
Trispis says "Then again, as I said earlier, I am a "one game only" type of
player. I only exist (apart from this conference and other such 'one time
events') on M*U*S*H. My perspectives, my ideologies, and my behaviors are
tainted by that fact."
Walker has disconnected.
Trispis senses the party dwindling.
Jamie says "well, is everyone having fun? ;)"
Trispis enjoyed the discussion very much, Jamie. Good job.
Kalain nods. "Very informative."
<DB> Save!
<DB> Done.
Trispis stops his log and heads back to M*U*S*H. Thanks, Jamie.
Trispis waves all around and poofs.
Trispis has disconnected.
Bobby_Newmark says "dang work."
Bobby_Newmark says "got back just in time to see people leave."
China says "but I look for a game that the admin don't 'favor' their friends
over me when it comes to my efforts being evaluated for something, taht I can
go to them if I havae a problem and it will be treated seriously and fairly,
as per how it concerns me, etc, etc. But I don't always find it. But as a
player I do look for it, or close to it. I'm flexable ...until it's obvious
it's not the kind of place I want to be."
Jamie deactivatez logbot.
Jamie gently shows you the door.
Thank you for visiting The Admin MUSH...

*** RhostMUSH Disconnected ***